{"id":3865,"date":"2024-04-25T16:09:55","date_gmt":"2024-04-25T16:09:55","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.cxformula.com\/?p=3865"},"modified":"2024-04-25T16:18:34","modified_gmt":"2024-04-25T16:18:34","slug":"rethinking-your-clients-experience-with-jason-friedman","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.cxformula.com\/rethinking-your-clients-experience-with-jason-friedman\/","title":{"rendered":"Rethinking Your Client\u2019s Experience with Jason Friedman"},"content":{"rendered":"\t\t<div data-elementor-type=\"wp-post\" data-elementor-id=\"3865\" class=\"elementor elementor-3865\" data-elementor-post-type=\"post\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<section data-particle_enable=\"false\" data-particle-mobile-disabled=\"false\" class=\"elementor-section elementor-top-section elementor-element elementor-element-20778010 elementor-section-boxed elementor-section-height-default elementor-section-height-default\" data-id=\"20778010\" data-element_type=\"section\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"elementor-container elementor-column-gap-default\">\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"elementor-column elementor-col-100 elementor-top-column elementor-element elementor-element-5fa343e6\" data-id=\"5fa343e6\" data-element_type=\"column\">\n\t\t\t<div class=\"elementor-widget-wrap elementor-element-populated\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"elementor-element elementor-element-817e416 elementor-widget elementor-widget-audio\" data-id=\"817e416\" data-element_type=\"widget\" data-widget_type=\"audio.default\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"elementor-widget-container\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"elementor-soundcloud-wrapper\">\n\t\t\t\t<iframe width=\"800\" height=\"200\" frameborder=\"no\" src=\"https:\/\/w.soundcloud.com\/player\/?visual=false&#038;url=https%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F1807842186&#038;show_artwork=true&#038;maxheight=1000&#038;maxwidth=800&#038;auto_play=false&#038;buying=true&#038;liking=true&#038;download=true&#038;sharing=true&#038;show_comments=true&#038;show_playcount=true&#038;show_user=true&#038;color\"><\/iframe>\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"elementor-element elementor-element-4f04b7b elementor-widget elementor-widget-text-editor\" data-id=\"4f04b7b\" data-element_type=\"widget\" data-widget_type=\"text-editor.default\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"elementor-widget-container\">\n\t\t\t<style>\/*! elementor - v3.21.0 - 30-04-2024 *\/\n.elementor-widget-text-editor.elementor-drop-cap-view-stacked .elementor-drop-cap{background-color:#69727d;color:#fff}.elementor-widget-text-editor.elementor-drop-cap-view-framed .elementor-drop-cap{color:#69727d;border:3px solid;background-color:transparent}.elementor-widget-text-editor:not(.elementor-drop-cap-view-default) .elementor-drop-cap{margin-top:8px}.elementor-widget-text-editor:not(.elementor-drop-cap-view-default) .elementor-drop-cap-letter{width:1em;height:1em}.elementor-widget-text-editor .elementor-drop-cap{float:left;text-align:center;line-height:1;font-size:50px}.elementor-widget-text-editor .elementor-drop-cap-letter{display:inline-block}<\/style>\t\t\t\t<p>Most copywriters and content writers don\u2019t give much thought to the client experience beyond getting the information you need to start a project and handing off the copy at as you wrap up. But that\u2019s a mistake. The client experience you create can be a huge differentiator for you and your business. Our guest for the 387th episode of\u00a0<em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em>\u00a0is Jason Friedman. And what he shared about creating a unique experience for your clients is a total game changer\u2014especially if you want to work with high-end clients. Click\u00a0the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.<\/p>\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"elementor-element elementor-element-fb5f615 elementor-align-center elementor-widget elementor-widget-button\" data-id=\"fb5f615\" data-element_type=\"widget\" data-widget_type=\"button.default\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"elementor-widget-container\">\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"elementor-button-wrapper\">\n\t\t\t<a class=\"elementor-button elementor-button-link elementor-size-lg\" href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/client-experience-jason-friedman\/\" target=\"_blank\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<span class=\"elementor-button-content-wrapper\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<span class=\"elementor-button-text\">Check out the Full Episode<\/span>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/span>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/a>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"elementor-element elementor-element-e41269c elementor-widget elementor-widget-text-editor\" data-id=\"e41269c\" data-element_type=\"widget\" data-widget_type=\"text-editor.default\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"elementor-widget-container\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<h3>Full Transcript:<\/h3><p><strong>Rob Marsh:<\/strong>\u00a0When is the last time you thought about your client\u2019s experience\u2014that is, the experience of working with you from their perspective? What does it feel like to work with you? What are they excited about? Where do they get lost? What do they get and how does that feel? Most copywriters don\u2019t give it a lot of thought to this beyond working out how to get the information you need to start the work and maybe what you deliver to your clients when you\u2019re done writing. Although, if you just deliver a google doc, you probably haven\u2019t thought about that at all.<\/p><p>Hi, I\u2019m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of\u00a0<em>The Copywriter Club<\/em>. And on today\u2019s episode of\u00a0<em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em>, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed customer experience consultant Jason Friedman. We talked in depth about what it takes to make the customer experience special. And how it is one of the few things you can do to truly differentiate your business from the other two million copywriters out there in the world. I know this is a big promise, but this episode has several ideas that will practically guarantee clients work with you again and again.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p><p>But before we get to that, if you\u2019ve been listening to this podcast for long, you\u2019ve no doubt noticed a recurring theme\u2026 how do copywriters and content writers find clients TODAY. Shortly after we launched The Copywriter Club, we created a special report with a bunch of ideas for finding clients and shared it with the world. I recently took a week to rework and revise that report\u2026 it now includes more than 21 different ideas for finding clients\u2026 some of which you can use today and possibly attract a client in the next 24 hours. Some of the other ideas will take longer to bring in clients. But they all work. We\u2019ve either used them ourselves, or know other successful copywriters who have used each one of these ideas. And we want to give you this report for free. This isn\u2019t a one page pdf that will get lost in your downloads folder. It\u2019s comprehensive\u2026 36 idea filled pages\u2026 including the 4 mistakes you can\u2019t afford to make when looking for clients\u2014if you make them, clients will not work with you. It also includes more than 21 ways to find clients, several templates for reaching out to clients, and finally the five things you need to do to improve your odds of landing a client. If you want a copy of this report, visit\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/findaclient\" data-wpel-link=\"internal\">thecopywriterclub.com\/findaclient<\/a>.<\/p><p>And with that, let\u2019s go to our interview with Jason.<\/p><p><b>Kira Hug:<\/b>\u00a0All right, Jason, let\u2019s kick off with your story. Let\u2019s start with your time working with bands and touring with bands. Let\u2019s start there and then move towards today, because I really want to talk about your time working in the music industry.<\/p><p><b>Jason Friedman:<\/b>\u00a0Absolutely. Well, yeah, so, you know, my background, I was a theater nerd, right? Like, so I went to school for theater. I started doing theater when I was like eight, nine years old at summer camp. And it was just, it was always backstage. So lighting, set design, things like that. And I remember I had just got the bug, like I wanted to be a rock and roll roadie for Rush specifically. And it was like, I remember I got introduced to them by a friend of mine and I was like that nerd. Like I opened the CD case, if you even know, people listen to this, but you don\u2019t even know what a CD is, right? But you open the CD case and on the album jacket, it said Lighting Box.\u00a0<\/p><p>And so there was a company name there. I was like, I\u2019m going to work for that company and I\u2019m going to go on tour with Rush and I\u2019m going to do this. And over the years, I\u2019ve just been doing shows and doing performances of all these different things. And when I got out of school, I had the opportunity to do anything. Right. So what did I do? I sent my resume in and I went on an interview with that company and they hired me. And it wasn\u2019t all glamorous. I worked in the shop. I was coiling cables and washing things and just doing all the grunt work.\u00a0<\/p><p>But one day came and they said, hey, you want to go out on the road? And I went out with Fleetwood Mac. And it was a small summer tour. It was only like 10 stops, but I was a roadie officially. Like I went out on a rock tour and it was awesome. And then I went out with Rush, which was my dream. And I also went out with Peter Gabriel as a tour and a variety of other smaller groups that probably most people don\u2019t know. But it was this culmination of setting that intention and having that kind of clarity of goal and just knowing that you\u2019re going to do it. And yeah.\u00a0<\/p><p>And so it was a wild journey, being out on the road, doing those shows, like being in a situation where you are playing to an audience, right? We all do this in our businesses. We all have an audience. We have customers, we have prospects, but being in that environment where everyone is in a concert, we get there hours earlier, we\u2019re tailgating, we\u2019re sitting there, we\u2019re listening to the songs. We\u2019re so excited about what\u2019s going to happen.\u00a0<\/p><p>What would happen if your customers were doing that with your business? They showed up early getting in the mood to learn from you or work with you or do something. And then when they\u2019re there, all the problems in the world fade away and they are so present and they\u2019re so involved and they\u2019re engaged and they\u2019re on their feet, they\u2019re dancing, they\u2019re jumping, they\u2019re singing along, they\u2019re sharing your words and singing your song for you. And then at the end, they go crazy with the standing ovation.\u00a0<\/p><p>I grew up with that over and over and over again. It\u2019s intoxicating, right? And so being with these groups, you learn this. It\u2019s like the Mr. Miyagi, wax on, wax off. You start to see the things, the techniques, the tactics that you use that elicit that kind of response night after night with new people, different audiences, different crowds, how you get them that level of engagement. It was pretty cool. And for the people on the team, the employees, there\u2019s no better place to work than when you\u2019re creating that kind of joy and excitement and engagement with people.\u00a0<\/p><p>So you see the front stage, what\u2019s going on with the customers and the backstage, what\u2019s going on with the team. And it was amazing. So I started there and then I went on to do some more legit theater. So Fiddler on the Roof, Jesus Christ Superstar, Man of La Mancha, same experience, right? Night after night, getting those audiences to have that kind of experience and have that transformation and playing a role, it was super fulfilling, super exciting.<\/p><p><b>Rob Marsh:<\/b>\u00a0So while we\u2019re talking about that part of your career\u2026 that gets me thinking. Obviously, the experience is everything, but there\u2019s so much behind the scenes that goes into creating the experience. I mean lighting is just part of it, right? And as you\u2019re talking about it, I\u2019m thinking about the message that we have as copywriters\u2014or whatever businesses we\u2019re running\u2014is a little bit like the music. We sit down, the musician sits down, writes a song, But then all of this other stuff has to happen to create an experience that is amazing. So talk just a little bit about the elements of how that all comes together. And obviously, the interest is in how you put together a rock concert for someone like Rush or U2 or whatever. But I really want to apply this to my business. What are those elements that I need to be thinking about in order to create an awe experience?<\/p><p><b>Jason Friedman:<\/b>\u00a0Yeah. I love the question. Let me just start off by saying, like defining what I think experience is. So we have a frame of reference to level set, right? So, when I think of the word experience, experience is not something you do. Experience is something that someone has. It\u2019s not the cause, it\u2019s the effect, right? So experience in my mind, a customer experience, it\u2019s the result of all the things you\u2019ve done, right? That allows the customer to feel something. So experience is a customer\u2019s perception of the interactions that they\u2019ve had with your brand, with your business, with your copy, with whatever it is, right? It\u2019s a feeling and it\u2019s their perception of that feeling.\u00a0<\/p><p>It changes based on where they start, right? If I come in and I\u2019m having a horrible day, you\u2019re starting with me from a very different place than if I came just off that rock concert and I\u2019m on a high, right? And part of understanding all of these things is how do we bring people in? What is that onboarding, if you will, that gets people in? And how do we look at our different customers or different avatars or personas who are going to be interacting with us, and understanding how to meet them where they are? It\u2019s not a one size fits all approach. And most businesses, most organizations, we kind of treat people that way, which is like, oh, here\u2019s the journey. And here\u2019s how people are going to come into our world. And we just assume it\u2019s going to be a fit for everybody.\u00a0<\/p><p>So as we think about this, as you think about your copy, I\u2019m not a world-class copywriter. I wish I was, but I know enough that I try to paint pictures with words. And I try to use as many senses as I can trigger and interact with. And I do that in my copy, but I do that in my business. And so I think about how do I? In a theatrical show, the script is one thing. When the words matter, there\u2019s a script. Right. That\u2019s true. When the words matter, there\u2019s a script. And the beauty of having a script is that as we start to put it together, like in the show. If I want an audience to laugh at exactly this moment, night after night, I can get them there with the script, with the acting, with the scenes, with all the other elements that I put in place. And when I\u2019ve done that, I\u2019ve actually been able to repeat that consistently, reliably with different audiences in different cities, night after night.\u00a0<\/p><p>So how does that work? It\u2019s all the elements. It\u2019s the way that the lines are delivered. It\u2019s not just the words written. It\u2019s how the person says them. The actor or actress recites those words. It\u2019s how the other person reacts to those words. It\u2019s the costumes, it\u2019s the lighting, it\u2019s the scenery, it\u2019s the environment, it\u2019s the colors, it\u2019s the textures of things. It enhances the mood and it sets us up. Just like we\u2019re talking about when people come to the rock concert, they get there, they\u2019re tailgating, they\u2019re having a drink or they\u2019re eating some food and they\u2019re playing the different songs in the background and there\u2019s other people singing. All of the environment, all of the elements come together and they affect how someone\u2019s feeling about that situation.\u00a0<\/p><p>And so in your business, as you\u2019re writing copy, ask how do I paint that picture for someone where they really have that feeling? Because it\u2019s that\u2019s where that\u2019s where the rubber meets the road. Right. And so what we do with clients all the time is we start at the end. We don\u2019t start at the beginning. We don\u2019t just start writing some copy or start designing a customer journey or deciding what the first moment has to be. We actually go all the way to the end and we say, look, They just finished reading your copy. They just finished attending your show. They just finished an amazing Zoom mastermind meeting, whatever it happens to be. What would the ideal, most amazing customer testimonial be? We call this the ideal customer script, because again, when the words matter, there\u2019s a script.\u00a0<\/p><p>So what we want you to do is we want you to script that ideal customer reaction, the best word of mouth testimonial they could ever give it. But we don\u2019t want you to do it based on what most people consider the result.\u00a0 Most people consider the result like if I\u2019m selling something for weight loss, it\u2019s like I\u2019m going to lose 20 pounds in 30 days. That\u2019s not the result. The result that I want you to focus on is that I feel better in my clothes, that I was the person that was sitting on the couch and my friend would call me to go out and I would say, I\u2019m sorry, I can\u2019t go out tonight because I would dread walking into my closet and seeing that nothing fit me and I didn\u2019t want to go out. But now I\u2019m actually calling my friends saying, hey, let\u2019s go out. I have like all these different clothes I can pick from. I\u2019m actually not sitting on the couch with a shovel of ice cream going to my mouth. I feel good and I\u2019m doing things. I\u2019m active and I\u2019m living my life. We want people to tell that journey. I was nervous when I first started. I\u2019ve tried so many things. So we want the journey, the testimonial, that ideal customer script really illuminates their journey and the emotional rollercoaster ride they went on and shows these mile markers, these moments where they\u2019ve had these transitions all along that way.\u00a0<\/p><p>When you\u2019re able to help your clients do that and see that and feel that, now I can reverse engineer the whole journey that the customers go on so that those moments happen for them. I can reverse engineer what has to happen. And that\u2019s how we do it in theater, right? We have the script, we know what we want it to be. Now we say, how do we stage the show? How do we bring that script to life in a way that we get that laugh at exactly that moment, night after night?\u00a0<\/p><p>So what we teach people how to do really is build a business operating system that allows them to scale their business. They get consistent results time after time again, that gets the response. Because that marketing, those testimonials, those, when your customers say those, that\u2019s what you\u2019re going to start using on the front end of your funnel. I want you to flip your funnel. I want you to focus on the results that people are getting and become so obsessed with your customer results that that is your marketing. Your experience is your marketing. That\u2019s when we put $1 in ads and we get 20, 40, 60, 100, 1,000 back because we know that the conveyor belt that\u2019s bringing people through your program is going to get results night after night after night.<\/p><p><b>Kira Hug:\u00a0<\/b>So this is fun because it has been a couple of years since we last sat through your workshop. And hearing you talk through this, this is the part that stuck the most. And this is the part where I\u2019ve been quoting Jason for years. But it\u2019s the mile marker piece here and the emotional roller coaster and that we can really reverse engineer that for our customers and clients. Could you talk more about the mile markers and how to view that along the journey from the perspective of a copywriter who\u2019s working in a service based business and is thinking, if I\u2019m working with this client over the next month, delivering a sales page, how should I think about these mile markers?<\/p><p><b>Jason Friedman:<\/b>\u00a0Yeah. You\u2019re going to have to help me with this a little bit. We\u2019ll do this together, right? So I\u2019ll, I\u2019ll be the client and you\u2019re probably the copywriter cause I haven\u2019t worked that way, but I have worked with copywriters and I\u2019ve been in that. I think the biggest thing, like when you\u2019re thinking about a journey, is let\u2019s start at the beginning. The most important thing in the beginning, we have a first impression, right? First impressions matter. It sounds very cliche, but it really does. It sets the tone for everything. And so we have to think about onboarding in the beginning, right?\u00a0<\/p><p>Now, I believe that onboarding actually happens many times in the relationship with a customer, with a spouse, with friends, with everybody, right? Onboarding is something that you do every time there\u2019s a transition in the relationship. So when I first come into your world, before I hired you, you have to onboard me into your universe. I might only be problem aware, I might be solution aware, I might be brand aware, but we have three different kinds of people that maybe coming in and they\u2019re at different places. So how do I bring them in and get them to a place where we kind of have a baseline to have a conversation? So there\u2019s onboarding that happens there.\u00a0<\/p><p>Now let\u2019s say you hire me, right? Now I have to do an onboarding there because the relationship just transitioned again. And now there might be another major transition where we finished our first project, now we\u2019re going to a second project. There might be another onboarding that happens there. So onboarding is something I like to think of as how do I welcome people in and set and manage expectations and set things up for success as a key shift in a relationship, right? So onboarding is going to happen all the time.\u00a0<\/p><p>Now, onboarding is not logistics and housekeeping, although most people believe that it is. And so imagine that I just hired you. You\u2019re my copywriter. And you\u2019re like, awesome, Jason. Here\u2019s everything that I need from you and everything you have to do. I just hired this person. You just gave me seven months worth of homework. I want to die. Why did I hire this person? So what we need to do in onboarding is we need to bite size our onboarding in a way that brings people in. We want to bring people in. We want to set expectations. but we want to guide them through an experience that doesn\u2019t overwhelm, right? Because when someone buys something from you, when someone signs a contract, they buy a product, a service, an online course, offline course, it doesn\u2019t matter. I believe that is an intention, not a commitment. It\u2019s an intention, not a commitment.\u00a0<\/p><p>And so part of that onboarding is like buyer\u2019s remorse is going to set in pretty quickly. Did I make the right decision? The itty bitty shitty committee inside their head is going to start going in cycles wondering, is this the right thing? And so we have to help them reassure and reaffirm that it was a good decision. And if we\u2019re overloading them and overwhelming them, we\u2019re going to do ourselves a disservice, right? So just psychologically speaking, like we\u2019re dealing with cognitive biases. They may have stuff that happened in the past when they hired someone that\u2019s coming up for them because it feels similar. And now you\u2019re maybe at a disservice because they were used to it, they got that with a hot copywriter before. And that was, they almost had the same email. And now they\u2019re like, Oh my God, that didn\u2019t work out. This is going to be bad. So we have to think about those things. Like they\u2019re coming with their own baggage with their own experience.\u00a0<\/p><p>So what I, what I like people to do is I want you to find, we call it the time to first value. I want you to find the fastest, shortest way to get them a win as soon as someone starts with So that first mile marker, like you\u2019re going to give them some onboarding, you\u2019re going to welcome them in. And then the first thing I want you to do is, how do I get them a win? Now, what is a win? A win is a perception of success. And it\u2019s not going to be that they got their first bit of copy finished and it\u2019s awesome. That\u2019s a big, big, big win, right? That\u2019s down the road. What\u2019s a little win that gets them to say, wow, this is good. This is working.\u00a0<\/p><p>So as you start to think about that, I want you to think of these mile markers as wins or key milestones that someone sees that they\u2019re moving in the right direction. They have momentum. They\u2019re making forward progress. Right. And so if you wrote that script already, you know what some of those key moments are going to be because you put yourself in the shoes of the customer. You looked at it from their lens. One of the tricks that we like to do is use theater again. Imagine that you\u2019re Matthew McConaughey and you\u2019re playing this character on stage. How do you get into character? I want you to think about that. I want you to think like if you were going to be your customer, you were going to go to the grocery store as your customer, what would you be thinking when you walked into the grocery store? What kind of mood would you be in? What car did you drive in with? How would you, you know, what do you dress as? How do you feel? Are you, are you someone that\u2019s going to say hello to everybody? Or are you going to kind of be in your own place and not looking around? We need to know how you could believably portray your character on stage, like Matthew McConaughey.\u00a0<\/p><p>And so as you start to put yourself in that role, what would that first win be? What do I need to feel confident and say, wow, this was great? And so you\u2019re going to do that with your script, and then you\u2019re going to reverse engineer and start saying, what is that first win? What\u2019s the next cool thing? And as you start to look at all these things, you can really analyze what success looks like.\u00a0<\/p><p>Now, the other mistake that I see most people make is that we measure against the ultimate result. So it\u2019s like, oh, I didn\u2019t get there yet. When you measure against the ideal result, it\u2019s always going to be a negative number until you get there. It\u2019s never going to be enough. So I want you to actually measure from where people started. Because it\u2019s always going to then be a positive number. I\u2019ve made progress to here. Now I\u2019m here. And so our job, if we want our customers to feel good and see the momentum and see that they\u2019re making progress with us, we have to show them. We have to communicate that.\u00a0<\/p><p>So in your copywriter example, how do I know what those key stages are? And how do I know? Oh, awesome. I\u2019m on step three. We\u2019ve already made it through step three and we\u2019re only in two. That\u2019s awesome. That\u2019s amazing. Right. And let\u2019s say that step four is going to be much bigger to get from step three to step four is going to take longer. That\u2019s a bigger lift. Well, I accurately communicate those expectations. I set and manage those expectations. Because it\u2019s like I think about it like in our business, like what we help people do is figure out how do we create this perfect journey, right? This ideal journey that gets people from point A to point B and allows it to be as smooth as possible, right? So imagine that you\u2019re on a water slide at a pool. You go down this crazy water slide, you\u2019re at a cool resort, but there\u2019s not quite enough water. And so you get stuck and you chafe a little bit, right? And then all of a sudden, they realize, oh, there\u2019s a lot of friction there. It\u2019s not working. And they turn up the water. And all of a sudden, the water starts flowing, and you start going, and you\u2019re going up and down. And even if you\u2019re going uphill, there\u2019s enough movement and momentum that you keep going smoothly and fluidly through that experience. We want your journey to be that fluid experience. We need to remove and reduce as much friction along that journey.\u00a0<\/p><p>So if you think about it from your customer\u2019s perspective, what are the hardest parts? Part of it is not knowing what the next step is. Part of it might not be not knowing where we\u2019re headed or when we\u2019re going to get there. Part of it might be that you\u2019re off in your own place doing all this amazing work. You\u2019re researching, you\u2019re writing, you\u2019re testing, you\u2019re doing all the things, but we don\u2019t know because we\u2019re not seeing it real time. So we don\u2019t know what\u2019s going on. So communication might be, oh my gosh, I just had some amazing things. Like here\u2019s a little snippet. I can\u2019t wait to share the rest of it with you. It might be that showing that you\u2019re engaged and you\u2019re excited that gets them to feel really you know, part of the process with you that there\u2019s like a little bit of co-creation going on, maybe, or maybe it\u2019s just updates. It depends on the client, right? But as you think about that journey, like, how do you make it better?\u00a0<\/p><p>So if the step three to step four is a bigger lift, it\u2019s like you need to build up a little more momentum to get them over that hump. If you\u2019re driving a car, if you hit the accelerator, and you\u2019re holding it at a steady pace, you\u2019re just going and all of a sudden you hit a hill, you have to hit the accelerator more to get up that hill. So what do you do between step three and four to give it a little bit of a boost for them to know this is a longer spot or this is a harder piece. Or once we get to this place, it\u2019s all downhill and it\u2019s gonna be smooth sailing. It\u2019s just gonna take a little longer. So bear with me, here\u2019s what we\u2019re gonna do. I\u2019m gonna check in with you, you know, once a week for the next three weeks and just kind of keep you up on the progress. If you have any questions, you know, whatever that is. But you\u2019re setting and managing those expectations all the way through, those mile markers help them.\u00a0<\/p><p>And when you share things that will help them feel confident about the work that you\u2019re doing, like maybe it\u2019s like those, like those little nuggets of like some samples or some little pieces or just letting them feel reassured that you\u2019re on the same page. And we\u2019re like, what I\u2019m going to see when it comes out is actually going to be aligned with what I\u2019m looking for. You\u2019re going to find that they\u2019re pretty happy and they\u2019re pretty excited about it. And those are things that they\u2019ll probably tell other people about later because it meant something. Not everyone else is doing that, right?<\/p><p><b>Kira Hug:<\/b>\u00a0It\u2019s so amazing because I\u2019m so proud of my onboarding. I have my email and it has all the things my clients need to do for me and it\u2019s really well organized and it actually works pretty well. But when I hear you talk about it this way, I\u2019m like, I\u2019m overwhelming them at step one. Could I break it up and just give them a piece of it? And could I also create some type of roadmap of visual because I\u2019m a visual person to show them all the steps and to track like, here\u2019s where we are. What do you recommend?<\/p><p><b>Rob Marsh:\u00a0<\/b>At the very least, Kira, you need to be sending them like a protein bar so they have the energy to get through it.<\/p><p><b>Kira Hug:<\/b>\u00a0It\u2019s interesting too because I thought I was doing a good job by being organized and just getting it all in one email because otherwise I\u2019m worried they\u2019re going to lose emails and it\u2019s all scattered. But it sounds like that actually isn\u2019t the most efficient way of doing this.<\/p><p><b>Jason Friedman:<\/b>\u00a0Every business is different. And so I think you\u2019re right to be thinking about it. And most of us are like, oh, I\u2019m doing a great job. Nobody\u2019s complaining. That\u2019s not necessarily the best measure of success. How long does it take people to complete? Could they get it done faster and would it make them feel better and you if we did it and we broke it up? Now, some of us also like to bin. Can we like it all in one email? So maybe when you first talk to me, say, hey, listen, I want to actually tailor the onboarding experience to you.\u00a0<\/p><p>Let me ask you three questions so I know how to best set you up for success. And you actually tailor that. If it\u2019s someone that says, look, give me everything at once, organized neatly, that\u2019s great. Or it\u2019s like, hey, listen, I like to like, you know, I like to kind of break it up. So, you know, it might be that, right. And it might be like that. There\u2019s something that they do when they submit step one, step two, step three, and it just triggers another note back saying, awesome, congratulations, you finished step one. As you know, from our initial email, this is your next step. Looking forward to hearing back or whatever. It could be that, I don\u2019t know. Again, I don\u2019t know your specific process, but think about it from that perspective. where it can be more like choosing your own adventure, right? It\u2019s like, I can go and do it as I want. And some of us like to binge, right? So like, if I\u2019m doing all this and I decide, hey, you know what, Saturday is my day, I\u2019m gonna kind of get everything set up for Kira so that I have all the stuff in place, then I might want everything in one spot, or at least know that I have all the information, but here\u2019s my first mission, is this. So just look at it through the lens of the customer. Because what you said is exactly how we all think. I organized it. I made sure that\u2019s all clear and whatever, because it\u2019s easier for me as the business to have it all clean and then get it off my plate and get it over to you. It\u2019s just writer\u2019s logic versus reader\u2019s logic.\u00a0<\/p><p>You know what you\u2019re saying. You know what you\u2019re thinking. But are they getting the same message when they read that thing? So I would just encourage anybody. How do I make it better for my customers so that they feel that it\u2019s not overwhelming? And it could be calling it out, saying, hey, listen, congratulations, this is the first step. We\u2019re so excited you\u2019re working with us. Iin order to give you the big overview, I\u2019ve actually attached a document that has everything that you need to do. But for right now, I really need you to focus on these two things. So you can do both. I think it\u2019s just, it\u2019s just thinking about your avatars. And if you have different avatars in your business, how do I mass customize it? How do I make it so that they all feel like it\u2019s done the way that they most need it? And there\u2019s probably a way to do it where, like I just gave that example, maybe you have both within one email and they\u2019re covered.<\/p><p><b>Rob Marsh:<\/b>\u00a0Jason, as we\u2019re talking about this customer experience, I want to go back to your story and your career path because I think it\u2019s really helpful to see other examples, maybe outside of the copywriting world, the marketing world, where you are basically producing these kinds of customer experiences. So as you look you left the theater world\u2014or maybe you never really left the theater world because that\u2019s really what you\u2019re doing\u2014instead of doing it for Broadway shows, I know you started doing some of this stuff in retail environments. Will you tell us how your career evolved from there?<\/p><p><b>Jason Friedman:\u00a0<\/b>When I, when I started I was brought in to help bring theatricality to retail. So we were bringing in technology like lighting and sound and scent you know, like, because they wanted to kind of zhuzh it up, if you will, right? It started, I\u2019m going to date myself right now, but this was in 1997, 1998. And so at that time, online shopping was just becoming a thing, right? I know many people listening to this probably don\u2019t remember a time when you couldn\u2019t go on Amazon, but it was pre Amazon. And so what they wanted to do was make sure that people came to their store and they found value in being in the store versus just going to some random online, shop. And so the first client was Foot Locker. And they brought us in to help them create what we were calling a store of the future at the time. Like what would an ideal shopping experience look like? How would we take the current shoe store shopping experience and make it be something special so that it would beat the online market?<\/p><p><b>Rob Marsh:<\/b>\u00a0And at the time, shoe stores were like racks of shoes. You\u2019d walk in and that was it.<\/p><p><b>Jason Friedman:<\/b>\u00a0There were boxes stacked up. There was like a sample on top of that. They had some merchandising along the walls, like slat wall design and whatever. It was mildly functional. So they had a bunch of extra inventory in the back and you had shoe jockeys running back and forth, getting stuff and trying to help you and kind of ignoring you when they were helping somebody else. And it was, it was messy. So we did some work and really started to understand what would be the ideal experience for people? They wanted to find what they wanted quickly, but what we also learned was that as people spent more time, shopping and browsing in the store, you know, feeling good about it, excited and engaged in it, they would actually spend more money. The average order value would go up, right? Makes sense.\u00a0<\/p><p>So we, we redesigned the store quite dramatically, where it would tell stories. And so imagine that the store actually kind of came to life. So you\u2019d walk in the store, and you would feel like you should go to the left, you could go to the right, but you\u2019d feel like you should go to the left. And so the store was kind of guiding you in, and it was partially the way the merchandising was set up. It was partially the way the lighting was moving you, like it was actually moving you through there. Audio was moving around the space, and you just kind of felt like naturally this is the way to go. And as you go through, TV screens and sounds and whatever, the store would come to life.\u00a0<\/p><p>And it was about athleticism. So we had media that we were producing that would get you in the mood and would be stuff about basketball and, you know, elevating your heartbeat and all sorts of fun stuff. And everything was organized in a different way. And we would feature different products, the way lighting would focus on it. So if you know the Foot Locker, they have this like a crazy, like referee guy is like their logo and he has like a whistle hanging out. So all of a sudden you\u2019re like tweet, tweet, tweet. And then all the lights would pivot and go and they\u2019d highlight a specific product. And then a promotion would come up on the screens for it.\u00a0<\/p><p>Now, what was happening is people were actually excited about the store. They were going and they would look at the products that were being featured. It was organized in a way that let them find things and was also exciting for them to go and discover more things. So they weren\u2019t just there. They came in like, I want to find this shoe. And they said, wow, like, let me see what else they have. And so what ended up happening through that first store that we built is they had a 400 percent increase in sales. Wait, what? Boom. So they\u2019re like, OK, that\u2019s crazy. Let\u2019s try this again. Let\u2019s do another pilot. The first one we did was in Watertown, Massachusetts, just outside Boston. The second one we did was in Oakbrook, Illinois, just outside Chicago. Same store, same design, different demographic, same results, 400% increase in same-store sales. Boom. And then they\u2019re like, all right, let\u2019s do one more. So then we did one more just outside of New York City in Stanford, Connecticut. Same results, 400% increase. Boom. And so we had figured something out. We figured out a formula of how we would engage people.\u00a0<\/p><p>Remember, this started out by wanting to make it more theatrical. Let\u2019s hang some screens. Let\u2019s put some TVs in. And what we asked was, if someone saw the screen, what would you have them do? What would you want them to do next? And they couldn\u2019t answer that in the beginning. But over lots of conversation and really understanding it through the lens, it\u2019s like, well, what would the customer want? What would be awesome for them? What would get them to want to be in the store more? When they leave, what would get them to not only have a positive experience and feel good, but what would get them to go to their friends and say, wow, you\u2019ve got to go to check this store out, because that\u2019s what was happening. We were getting foot traffic because of word of mouth, because it went viral within their little communities of what was happening. Anyway, fade out, fade in, we ended up doing like 1,000 plus stores all across the country, different levels of investment. We had a flagship A store, then a slightly less expensive B, C, D, based on the market and the size and the footprint and the real estate. But it was super successful. And from that, Rob, we ended up getting called by lots of different brands.\u00a0<\/p><p>What it really was, was how do you tell these compelling stories that engage your customers to be more present, to buy more products, to invest in the relationship in a bigger way? And we ended up doing it not just with retail, but hospitality, so theme parks, restaurants, spas, financial institutions, And then ultimately universities, we ended up working with them on raising funds for their endowments. Stanford was a big client, Duke, Yale, Harvard, tons of universities, and helping to tell their story and create an experience for their donors that would actually want them to learn more about the initiatives and not just give money to put their name on a building for the vanity of it, but actually care about the costs. And so we started to bring causes and bring those stories to life through the same formula. It\u2019s the same formula that I\u2019m talking about to write the copy and make that experience better for the customer. It doesn\u2019t matter. It\u2019s online, it\u2019s offline, it\u2019s events, it\u2019s retail, it doesn\u2019t matter. It\u2019s the same formula.<\/p><p><b>Kira Hug:\u00a0<\/b>So let\u2019s talk about shifts in the customer experience space. I know that we had chatted before we hit record on how you\u2019ve adjusted some of your programs and teaching. So I\u2019m curious, has anything shifted over the last few years where you\u2019re teaching in a different way or we should be aware of different things as we think about our customer experience?<\/p><p><b>Jason Friedman:<\/b>\u00a0The world is evolving rapidly, as we all know. I\u2019m sure you guys talk a lot about AI nowadays, right? It\u2019s the great equalizer right now. And, you know, we\u2019ve had this happen many times, uh, since we\u2019ve all been, you know, on the planet and it\u2019s going to continue down the road, right. There\u2019s going to be new things down the road. What is very ironic about all of this\u2014so 25 years ago, I remember saying to a group that I was speaking to, you know what? Customer experience is the most impactful, best way to differentiate your business in the marketplace. It will allow you to rise above your competition. For 25 years, I\u2019ve been saying that. It\u2019s more important today than it ever has been before. I\u2019m still saying that. Today, I mean it even more than I meant it then, and I meant it then.\u00a0<\/p><p>Here\u2019s the thing. Anybody can put a bunch of prompts into chat GPT or wherever you want to use as your AI tool, and they can create a program, they can create a course, they create a sales letter, they can create a sales page and have it done in just a matter of minutes. What\u2019s going to make them hire you as their copywriter? What\u2019s going to make them hire me as their coach or as the course that they choose to learn? It\u2019s going to be the results that they get. And it\u2019s going to be about how they feel as they\u2019re going through that journey. It\u2019s the conflation of both of those things that really sets people apart. And I believe that\u2019s the experience that you create. I know that the experience you create, it is your fingerprint. It is your differentiating point. It is what creates your blue ocean, if you will, in your business.\u00a0<\/p><p>And so for all of us today, if we want to have that staying power, if we want to have that longevity, we need customers who love working with us. We need customers who actually become our sales who share their experience with others, who bring other people in. Word of mouth is amazing. It\u2019s important. It\u2019s one of the best possible ways to do it. And when your marketing is the stories of your successful clients, when those become your marketing and your experience is what they\u2019re sharing, when we talk about that ideal customer script, they\u2019re really sharing their journey, you will have an exponential growth in your business.\u00a0<\/p><p>Every dollar that you put into the front end of the funnel becomes many more returns on the back And so what we do today is we\u2019ve been doing the same thing for a really long time, teaching people this formula. But we\u2019ve enhanced the formula. We\u2019ve learned a lot over the years. And where we were kind of focusing primarily on customer experience before, we\u2019re really focusing more on that kind of customer obsession over positive results. Right. And so what we\u2019re helping you, like if you\u2019ve got a business where you need retention, right, if you have a membership or a subscription or something like that, this will help you.\u00a0<\/p><p>If you\u2019ve got a business where you want people to buy another engagement or upgrade to another platform or another level of service, this will help you. If you\u2019ve got a business where, you know, having a sales force is expensive, this will help you. This will turn your existing customers into your sales Right. We talk about this, this ideal result. It\u2019s when they rave about your business. It\u2019s when they return to buy more products from you. It\u2019s when they renew their products and services and it\u2019s when they recruit others to come and buy from you. Right. It\u2019s not a referral. It\u2019s a recruit. It\u2019s active. It\u2019s engaging. They\u2019re going out and they\u2019re, they\u2019re selling for you because they had a transformation. And we\u2019re all in this for the transformation. That\u2019s why we do the work we\u2019re doing, right? I\u2019m not in this for the money. Money is a nice, you know, nice measurement. It\u2019s a nice yardstick. We got to eat, we got to put food on the table. But I want to help more entrepreneurs, I want to help more small business owners, I want to help more copywriters get bigger, better results. And so as I\u2019m doing it, I have to get those results. So for me, they have to win. Otherwise, they\u2019re not going to buy more stuff from me, they\u2019re not going to tell more people about me.\u00a0<\/p><p>And so we help people understand how to shift the funnel, like flip the funnel and put the focus on the inside of the business. All the gurus, all the marketing teachers, everybody out there is teaching us how to get more leads, how to optimize for conversions. And that\u2019s important. It\u2019s definitely important. But let\u2019s say that you\u2019ve optimized everything and then people come in and they don\u2019t like the experience. They ask for a refund, they exercise the guarantees and the warranties and all of those things. When you really look at the cost of acquisition, when you start factoring all those defectors and all of those refunders and all those things in, it\u2019s not such a rosy, pretty picture. And all of our budget is going to strangers. How much of our budget and our time and our focus goes to the people who said yes. And when we do focus our time and our energy on the people who said yes, and we flip that funnel, we really focus on the inside, then once you\u2019ve optimized and done all that great work, now I\u2019ve got a consistent machine that\u2019s bringing people through getting results, and they\u2019re going to keep filling the funnel.\u00a0<\/p><p>So my cost of acquisition goes way, way, way, way down. And my cost of delight, like I can put more of my energy here, because I\u2019m saving so much money here. It\u2019s unbelievable. Like if you look at just the online business marketplace, right, people that are selling courses, Only 3 to 15% of buyers actually get results from the programs. And there\u2019s a huge percentage of buyers that never even crack the seal. They never even start the program or get going.\u00a0<\/p><p>So if we started focusing on how we optimize that side of our business instead of just optimizing people that give us a few dollars up front, every dollar that comes in up front will be worth many, many more dollars. And so what we\u2019re trying to do really is create that awareness. And in our program, you know, we call it the kinetic customer formula. I want customers who are in momentum, right? And so, you know, potential energy, energy with potential, not in motion, kinetic energy, energy that\u2019s in motion, that\u2019s taking action. And so we teach people this kind of way to put this operating system into their business that delivers these results consistently.<\/p><p><b>Kira Hug:<\/b>\u00a0I\u2019m going to ask a quick follow up before, I don\u2019t want to dwell on this for too long, but can you speak to just shifts in the online marketing space? We know it\u2019s a tougher market now. Customers are more skeptical because you\u2019ve shared those stats because so many of them don\u2019t get the results that they\u2019ve paid for in the past. It\u2019s just crowded now. It\u2019s shifted. So could you just speak to what you\u2019ve observed in that shift? it relates to what you\u2019re doing and makes it an obvious solution. You have to improve your customer experience. Otherwise, you\u2019re not going to last today. It\u2019s just the market\u2019s not there anymore.<\/p><p><b>Jason Friedman:<\/b>\u00a0100% like and beyond the experience, right? You have to get them results. People need to get the results. And so that\u2019s why I keep saying it\u2019s more important today than it ever has been before. And it\u2019s true. So like, here\u2019s what I\u2019ve observed, right? Take some of the big marketing gurus out there, right? I\u2019m not going to name drop anybody. I\u2019m good friends with a lot of them. And I think they\u2019re awesome. But when you look at how their business has shifted, the way they used to sell their products was through affiliate relationships. So they\u2019d have other marketers that have an email list and they would promote for them. And the big guys would promote the big guys.\u00a0<\/p><p>Well, the big guys are not promoting the big guys as much because they don\u2019t have room on their calendar. And so what you see as a shift is the people that are winning affiliate contests and leaderboards and are getting the biggest results are the customers of those gurus that are teaching it who actually use their system and got the results. Now think about that. That\u2019s what I\u2019m teaching you how to do, really. How do you turn customers into your superhero? So your customers are actually getting those amazing results, and then they want to tell other people. And then you\u2019re putting them in a system where you can reward and recognize them for even doing that further, right? And so what you\u2019re seeing as a shift is the big online space, like the affiliate, you know, universe, joint venture universe, and that the ones that are having the biggest success with that are the ones whose customers got results from using the program, and then they\u2019re sharing it with their audiences. And they\u2019re doing it, again, in that recruit, not in a refer.\u00a0<\/p><p>It\u2019s not passive. They actively get behind promotions because it has changed their life. They feel an obligation or a duty because they\u2019re not just helping someone make more money. They\u2019re sharing their journey of how they actually had a transformation and how it affected their life. And that\u2019s what we\u2019re talking about with the ideal customer script in a nutshell, right? And I\u2019ve been working with some of these gurus as well to help them do this, right? Because that\u2019s the way, right? When your customers get the results and they wanna tell other people, that\u2019s what\u2019s gonna help you win.\u00a0<\/p><p>And so in the online marketplace, with all the crowdedness, with all the noise, the way that you\u2019re, like, if you\u2019re looking for someone to clean your house, you go on Facebook, you know, local Facebook group, right? And say, hey, does anyone have a great person? You don\u2019t know, you\u2019re taking a referral from a friend, right? Like that\u2019s how we do things. Like we look for the social proof. Now, if the social proof and those testimonials and those case studies and whatever become really expository about their journey and how they were going across that, you start to relate to those even more and you start to buy into them and you can see yourself actually having those success stories, right? Like hearing that someone lost 20 pounds, you\u2019re not seeing your journey in that. You\u2019re like, okay, great. I know a lot of people lost 20 pounds. I\u2019ve tried this a thousand times. But when you hear about the struggles they had, and you\u2019re like, oh my gosh, that\u2019s my story. Wait, they did it? I can do this. Oh my gosh. This is different. The way this person\u2019s teeth, that would work for me. I understand that. Wow. Like a light bulb, breakthrough, right? That\u2019s what\u2019s helping people take action and move forward. It\u2019s that they\u2019re seeing themselves, and they can understand and relate to it in a different way.\u00a0<\/p><p>And so as we start to understand what those results really are, how to better quantify or qualify the results. And it\u2019s not just about the 20 pounds. It\u2019s about the way they feel in their skin. It\u2019s about how they show up. It\u2019s about how their life\u2019s going to change. And you tell that story, but you tell it with the hero\u2019s journey that they went through, if you will, the struggles and the epiphanies and the moments. People, people fall in love with that and they connect with it. And that\u2019s how we, that\u2019s what we want. We want to help people, you know, so as an entrepreneur, as a, as a small business owner, my goal is to help more people. And the reason that we do what we do, it\u2019s like, I believe that entrepreneurs like us, all of us here and those of us listening, we got into this to help other people and make some money along the way. And I\u2019m going to change the world by helping other people who are also going to change the world. We can\u2019t do it alone, right? We have to do it through other people.\u00a0<\/p><p>And so I just, I know that this is the way to do it. And I\u2019m passionate about it because, you know, it\u2019s funny when I was, 17 years old, my best friend, Drew, who\u2019s my business partner. We\u2019ve been best friends since we\u2019re about five, six years old. We joke about it like, you know, it\u2019s the longest marriage that either of us has been able to sustain because we weren\u2019t so successful in our actual marriages. But we were driving down the road in my 1985 Pontiac Trans Am. We called it Thunder Chicken. That\u2019s a story for another time. But we had just gone to do something for his dad. He\u2019d given us something to take to the bank and deposit a check. And they just wouldn\u2019t let us deposit this check. and they made it so hard. And we were trying to give them money that would make them more money. And it was like roadblock, friction, friction, obstacle. No, no, no, no. And we just sat there and we\u2019re like, why does this happen? Like, why do businesses make it so hard to do business with us? This is crazy. We had that epiphany then, and we had come up with this dream of a business called Making It Better. Like someday we were going to have a business called Making It Better. And actually, as we look at all the different businesses we\u2019ve had and the different markets and the different things we\u2019ve done, most of them have been really successful. We\u2019ve had a couple of flops. But the theme, the through line of every single one of those businesses is that. It\u2019s how do we make it better for our customers? How do we make it better for ourselves, for our families, for our employees? And I think when you look at things through that lens and you remove the friction, you reduce the obstacles to people having success, amazing things come out of that.\u00a0<\/p><p>And so I think today in this market, as you\u2019re looking at your business, ask yourself that tough question. Am I making it hard for my customers to have success with me? And how do you find those friction points, those moments that are a little harder that I can either reduce them or remove them? And you\u2019ll start seeing massive, massive improvements pretty much immediately.<\/p><p><b>Rob Marsh:\u00a0<\/b>Yeah, I\u2019ve got a whole list of ways that I make it hard for people to do business with.<\/p><p><b>Jason Friedman:<\/b>\u00a0Don\u2019t do it and don\u2019t be so rough. Yeah, don\u2019t be so rough. Just start just one at a time. Just start picking them off.<\/p><p><b>Rob Marsh:<\/b>\u00a0It\u2019s amazing what\u2019ll happen. We\u2019ve got, yeah, we\u2019ve got work to do. Okay. We\u2019re going to run out of time, but I really would love to just quickly step through the kinetic customer formula, if you\u2019re willing to share some of those steps that we can think through this on our own. And then obviously you\u2019ve got some resources that we can share if people want to find out more, but tell us a little bit more about the formula.<\/p><p><b>Jason Friedman:\u00a0<\/b>Absolutely. I\u2019m going to give you the quick 10 cent version, right? So there\u2019s four key things that four factors. There\u2019s attitudes, which are how people are thinking and expecting about your business. There\u2019s behaviors, the things that they\u2019re doing to get results. There\u2019s friction, the things that are slowing them down or stopping them from achieving those goals, those goals with those results. And there\u2019s momentum, how do we actually give them those extra boosts. And the combination of those four things are what we help people put into a very specific process to clean that up.\u00a0<\/p><p>So if you\u2019re going to try and implement what we\u2019re teaching and kind of think about it, literally start at the end, write that ideal customer script. What do you want that person to say and how would they share their journey and use your best copywriting skills? Make it juicy, paint pictures with the words that people are seeing that journey through the words that you write in that script. That\u2019s the first thing.\u00a0<\/p><p>Then we\u2019re gonna reverse engineer that. So we\u2019re gonna look at like in order for them to get those results that say that script, what behaviors do they need to do? So if you\u2019re designing it from scratch, you do that. If you\u2019re not, the first thing you do is you look at your existing journey and you write out everything they do at every step along the way. When you do this exercise, critically important, you\u2019re doing it from the vantage point of the customer, right? So for example, it\u2019s not send them an email, it\u2019s receive an email, right? See the nuance there. So it\u2019s through the lens of the customer. map out everything they do from beginning to end, and then go deep on each one of those doings, right? So you\u2019re asking, what are they thinking and expecting when they do that? Who are they interacting with when they do that? What are they using when they do that? And how are they feeling, most important?\u00a0<\/p><p>What you\u2019ll start to see is you\u2019ll start to see this rollercoaster ride of emotions that they go on. And so after you\u2019ve done that, what I want you to do is go through and find the friction. Like, where is it hard? Where do they get stuck? And you\u2019ll be able to easily identify that when you look at the tension that\u2019s created between feelings and thinking and expecting, right? And I\u2019m thinking, expecting one thing, but it\u2019s not actually happening. Okay, there\u2019s probably an expectation mismatch there, right? And so what we might have to do is go a couple steps back and set a different expectation, right? Or if they\u2019re feeling unsure, they might need a momentum boost, or we\u2019ll put another step in there, maybe that\u2019ll help them feel more confident and understand what\u2019s going to happen. Like we were saying about the difference between step three and step four of copywriting, if there\u2019s a long lag, I\u2019ve got to give some communication steps in there maybe.\u00a0<\/p><p>So you might add a few steps. That make sense? So you\u2019re going to start to look at all those, map those out, go deep on each one. What are they doing? What are they thinking, expecting? What are they using? Who are they interacting with? And how are they feeling? And then once you\u2019ve done that, like I said, find the friction points. And look at the ones that are going to remove the biggest obstacles. Take out the biggest obstacles first and go deep. There\u2019s a lot of nuance to this. There\u2019s a lot more steps. I know we don\u2019t have a whole lot of time, but this will get you started and get you going in the right way. And pay special attention to the transitions. So look at your onboarding, that first transition. Like really make sure that you make it easy for people to get started. And make sure that as it gets harder, either the relationships get stronger so that it\u2019s worth the fight, or that their skills are getting stronger, so that they\u2019re able to do the harder work, whichever it happens to be for your business, right? If it\u2019s always so easy, we\u2019ll lose interest. Also, if it gets too hard, we\u2019ll lose interest. It has to be in this, we call this the flow channel, where the degree of difficulty and the degree of effort and skill are increasing together in lockstep.<\/p><p><b>Rob Marsh:\u00a0<\/b>And I appreciate, too, what you said when we were just starting out talking, Jason, about looking at this journey, not just from the purchase, but from the very first engagement, because there\u2019s a ton of things that happen between that first engagement and a purchase where we introduce friction or we\u2019re not even thinking about a customer experience. So thinking through this process from day one, day zero, I\u2019m about to meet you to result, I think could be really helpful.<\/p><p><b>Jason Friedman:\u00a0<\/b>I love that, Rob. And I would, I would even say, go back to day negative 180, like go backwards. And like, when someone\u2019s having a problem, like, because if you, again, if you get into character, if you do what I say, like you kind of Matthew McConaughey here, right? If you get into that spot, you have to know what brought them to that day. right, where they started to learn and they started to go back further. The insights are tremendous. And you might actually build a customer for life just in your sales process at that point, because you can really connect with them on a much deeper level, and authentically deliver what they need, while selling them what they want in a way that\u2019s so profound, that they really they just the reciprocity is just kind of baked in from the get go. So super powerful, really good point.<\/p><p><b>Kira Hug:\u00a0<\/b>There\u2019s so many takeaways from this conversation. Just thinking about my onboarding, which I\u2019ve been so proud of and thinking of new ways to evolve. It\u2019s just a good reminder that there\u2019s always more to learn and to improve. And even the testimonials you\u2019re talking about. As copywriters, we can rewrite testimonials for clients, of course, get approvals, but we can create them as transformations rather than just these are the results. So I think that\u2019s another power move for copywriters with their clients or for their own products. And so many other takeaways for anyone who wants more information from you, Jason, or wants to jump into a program or course. Where should they go to learn more?<\/p><p><b>Jason Friedman:<\/b>\u00a0Awesome. Thanks. You can definitely check us out at CXformula dot com. If you\u2019d like to get a little bit more information about us, but I have a little present for your people. I\u2019m going to use a copy technique. I\u2019m not going to tell you what it is. I\u2019m going to tease you.\u00a0<\/p><p>If you go to\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/gift.cxformula.com\/\" rel=\"external noopener noreferrer\" data-wpel-link=\"external\">gift.cxformula.com\/copyclub<\/a>, there\u2019s a PDF there. It will take you less than 10 minutes to go through. But it\u2019s got a really killer strategy that is going to actually have you ask some different questions about your business and it will change the way you think in a very positive way. So I encourage you to read it. And then it will also give you some ways to like immediately, actionably implement this strategy in your business.\u00a0<\/p><p>I ask two favors. Favor one, if you download it, actually look at it. Like, I don\u2019t want this to be shelfware that just sits on your computer hard drive and gets stale someday. So just take a look at it.<\/p><p><b>Rob Marsh:\u00a0<\/b>You know us so well, Jason.<\/p><p><b>Kira Hug:<\/b>\u00a0Yeah. I think you\u2019ve been around for a while.<\/p><p><b>Rob Marsh:<\/b>\u00a0There\u2019s that friction again, right there.<\/p><p><b>Jason Friedman:\u00a0<\/b>Not my first rodeo. So fight through the pain, it will be worth it. I promise you when you get to the other side, you\u2019d be like, that was a really interesting question. I love this. And number two, I\u2019m going to send you an email that gives you this thing. When you put in your information, if you use it or you like it, or you don\u2019t like it, tell me what you think. I actually am very curious about how people are using this so that I can help more people. So that\u2019s it. I know it\u2019s going to be helpful. I know it\u2019s pretty cool. Um, and, uh, I really would love to see how you\u2019re using it.<\/p><p><b>Rob Marsh:\u00a0<\/b>I\u2019m downloading it right now. I\u2019m already intrigued by the title. Yeah. So I\u2019m on it.<\/p><p><b>Jason Friedman:\u00a0<\/b>So did I do good in the copy?<\/p><p><b>Rob Marsh:\u00a0<\/b>Pretty good. Yeah. I might, I might send you a way or two to improve. No. It looks good. I\u2019m just teasing.<\/p><p>This has been eye-opening, like the last time we talked. I just remember walking away thinking, holy crap, I\u2019ve got so much work to do here.\u00a0<\/p><p><b>Jason Friedman:\u00a0<\/b>Don\u2019t beat yourself up, just start fixing, because I think that\u2019s the approach.\u00a0<\/p><p><b>Rob Marsh:\u00a0<\/b>And I just really appreciate the level of thought that you bring to the customer journey. And it\u2019s something that way too many of us as service providers who just like to send our customers Google Docs, We don\u2019t really think about that experience. And so there\u2019s just a ton here that\u2019s really valuable.\u00a0<b>Jason Friedman:\u00a0<\/b>Thank you for that. Thanks for having me, guys. Really appreciate it.<\/p><p><b>Kira Hug:<\/b>\u00a0Thanks, Jason.<\/p><p><b>Rob Marsh:\u00a0<\/b>That\u2019s the end of our interview with Jason Friedman. I want to add just a couple of thoughts to our conversation. I don\u2019t know if this is going to extend a lot of what Jason was talking about, but just some thoughts that occurred to me.\u00a0<\/p><p>At one point, Jason mentioned the idea that experience is not something that you do. It\u2019s something the customer has. This is a really big idea in my opinion. A lot of copywriters who have worked in agency environments have the experience of working with clients on a level that\u2019s really different from what most freelancers do. In the agency, you invite clients into the office oftentimes or you\u2019ll go to their office to present oftentimes. There\u2019s a lot of drama built into it. They serve lunch or drinks. If you\u2019ve watched Mad Men, you\u2019ve seen this yourself. They\u2019ll show a video or they show all of the work and it\u2019s all mounted on black boards and it\u2019s very professional and feels very high touch, white glove kind of thing. But a lot of us as freelancers, we don\u2019t ever even think about what that level of experience means to our clients. Now, don\u2019t get me wrong. I\u2019m not saying that we need to be presenting over lunch or that everything needs to be fancy, but there\u2019s something that happens in that client experience where they are being treated differently. They are sort of being wined and dined just a little bit that is worth emulating in the businesses that we have all built. So again, not saying you need to take your clients out to lunch in order to present, but maybe there\u2019s something you can do that\u2019s just a little bit different, that creates a slightly different experience. Maybe instead of presenting on plain Google Docs, you are presenting your work on branded documents of some kind, and you\u2019re showing up obviously on video or in some other ways to present it. So you\u2019re not just throwing a Google Doc over the fence and letting the client sort of figure it out on their own. If that\u2019s not what you\u2019re doing, there may be other things that we can do during the process to make that experience of working with us different, higher end, or just feel really good. It\u2019s definitely something worth considering and thinking about as you consider how you work with your clients.\u00a0<\/p><p>Again, we start with that ideal customer testimonial, which is based on the transformation, not just the work that you do, but the results that you get and asking, where can you find these wins in the process? Is it during the initial interviews and on the sales call? Is it before that? Is it as you\u2019re working with that call and going through your scorecard or your diagnostic process? Is it something that you\u2019re doing with the research and presenting the research? Is it as you\u2019re outlining and writing the drafts? Think about different ways that you can increase your customers\u2019 experience or positive experiences throughout that process.\u00a0<\/p><p>Lastly, I just want to repeat that formula that we talked about with Jason because I think each of these four elements is really important when we talk about this customer experience. Number one, attitudes, the beliefs that they have, behaviors, what they do to get the results is number two. Friction, what\u2019s slowing them down and causing them problems or making things hard for both you and for them.\u00a0<\/p><p>Finally, momentum, what keeps them going? What are the things that you can do to keep them excited about working with you? Of course, you\u2019re doing all of this from the customer\u2019s vantage point, not from ours. Oftentimes, when we think about customer experience, we look at it from what we\u2019re doing and we are creating that experience. Going back to what Jason said earlier, it\u2019s not something you do, it\u2019s not something you create, it\u2019s something the customer has and engineering that from their standpoint.\u00a0<\/p><p>Thanks to Jason Friedman for joining us to chat about client experiences and how to improve them. Make sure that you take advantage of his free giveaway at gift.cxformula.com\/copyclub. I believe that\u2019s all one word. I downloaded it. You should too. And when it arrives in your inbox, don\u2019t let it gather dust.<\/p>\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/section>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Most copywriters and content writers don\u2019t give much thought to the client experience beyond getting the information you need to start a project and handing off the copy at as you wrap up<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":3870,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"elementor_theme","format":"standard","meta":{"inline_featured_image":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[24],"tags":[],"aioseo_notices":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.cxformula.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/3865"}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.cxformula.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.cxformula.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.cxformula.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.cxformula.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=3865"}],"version-history":[{"count":10,"href":"https:\/\/www.cxformula.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/3865\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":3876,"href":"https:\/\/www.cxformula.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/3865\/revisions\/3876"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.cxformula.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/3870"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.cxformula.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=3865"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.cxformula.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=3865"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.cxformula.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=3865"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}